Interviews for Massachusetts Commissioner of Education: Penny Schwinn

You could look at WBUR's profile here  The livestream of all interviews is here. 

Sagan lays out what the Board wants in education: what convinces you that this is the right job for you?
Schwinn: Massachusetts the bellweather for what is possible in this country
"it is the standard"
"incredibly compelling" that the state is continuing to move things forward
mom grew up in Natick
saw the achievement gap in her mother's classroom; asked her mom why, and she didn't know why
dad grew up in Massachusetts, moved from home to home, ended up homeless
father didn't have the same access to an excellent education that her mom did
"he is as much the reason I am in education today" as her mom
started teaching in Baltimore "amazing and incredible students, and not enough of them finished high school"
runs through her background
"very happy in my work in Texas...one of the most powerful things I can think of" to come back to Massachusetts

Craven: committed to diversity and inclusion: how would you define diversity?
Schwinn: "incredibly important...gender, race"
people with very different beliefs and background in the room
"incredibly important if you're going to get to the best possible answer in education"
developing accountability in her own background: part of that "was having a representative group of stakeholders"
"people who don't usually come to meetings"
in planning had people around the table who represent full community
"inclusion and representation across the full picture and not just the traditional identifiers"

Moriarty: turning around schools: understanding of roots of problem and what would you do?
Schwinn: hardest work in public education and work I feel most strongly about
"a very very diverse community who all bring very different benefits to the work"
"have to understand how to approach that"
have low expectations for some populations
have "incredible educators" who work very hard every day
"have to have very clear performance management"
what are those gaps, what are the root causes of those gaps
"solutions have to be personalized to local communities"
the state "is the cousin who comes to stay and brings their suitcase"
"local districts and local stakeholders can find local solutions"
Moriarty: third grade reading outcomes: three actions
Schwinn: starting young: so critical that we start literacy instruction "day one in kindergarten"
have a very limited understanding when we talk about literacy in the classroom: "making sure that we teach context"
teach art, and social studies, and science
"can't wait until third grade when we start that"
third, resources and support for educators
target students

Morton: support children with disabilities
Schwinn: allow children to access the content "the most important work we're doing in education right now"
"supposed to be providing the supports and accommodations"
"not thinking about the child by the disabilities"
"lots of different things that connect children together"
"how to look at each individual child in our classroom and identify all of the needs"
very important
role of state and districts is provide supports in classrooms
understand and identify what children need to be successful
Morton: leverage statewide for childrens with disabilities
Schwinn: have worked in large and small state
"how do you create equity across the full system"
"should not be plug and play...one size fits all...specific to local needs and context"

Craven: resource allocation and management: experience?
Schwinn: very large state, very large team
oversee 300 people, oversee $3B
"feel very strongly about performance management"
technical assistance to oversee allocation in districts
look at best practices
"no way to have one strategy" that fits all
performance management teams in priority areas

Sagan: special education in Texas
pretty good picture of Texas agency's view: would like your view
Schwinn: it's an important topic
has been a history of not doing right by students with disabilities
number declined to exact number that was the monitoring (?)
heard from parents that "we needed to invest more strategically in what needs of students were"
charged with writing contract then passed to agency that oversees
have not been strong in bringing in groups on contracts
"and that was a mistake"
should have brought in parents
"those parents should have been at the table"
personally asked for the audit on contract; "was very quickly dismissed"
"absolutely" should have included parents on the front end
"have lost a lot of trust from parents"
Texas "is at a tipping point"
"monitoring in the next three months will move under me"
it does not matter to a parent who was in Austin
"it matters that her son has access to the curriculum"
"that's not fair to those children"
"it's a real opportunity for us to prove that we believe in the" potential of all children
Sagan: parents expressed a question around privacy and children's data
Schwinn: "incredibly incumbent on the public schools to protect data"
oversee research and analysis; part of that is owning the data
care of how we communicate
"do have a tremendous amount of data"
"strong onus on us to protect children's data as much as possible"
Sagan: spending money and contract: philosophy? controls?
Schwinn: "there are never enough dollars to go around"
"don't have enough information" on students
"needed to find some way...so we could more effectively invest our dollars"
"we were not being strategic"
"looking at the data and looking at what the data is telling you about the need"
you start small, you see if it works, you see why, and if it does, you scale up
Moriarty: executing a decision or yours (on state contract on data contract)
Schwinn: no, let me clarify
was tasked with trying to find solutions to problems that we perceived
found a vendor we thought would solve and "sole source"
contracts and procurement team goes through process; can't sign or approve contracts
McKenna: my understanding is this began as a compliance issue in terms of the federal government
why are you spending contract money on getting information on 8.5% of students getting services rather than the students who are not getting services?
Schwinn: parents who very rightful felt their students should have been getting services and weren't
hubs of special education support across the state; districts saying that isn't good
providing services for all students who weren't identified
"that's a lot of kids...it's unacceptable...it is our responsibility to correct that"
not always a paper trail; how do we find those parents?
very complicated especially if you think of those children who are now graduates

Stewart: what roles would you need to fill in around you to compliment?
Schwinn: "you are steering the ship"
finance, educator support, academics, IT
"I have been predominately been in two areas: program...and what we lovingly call accountability"
flags finance as an area she'd need support in
"have to be an instructional leader"
Stewart: building and maintaining staff; hiring?
Schwinn: have been able to build a team
a diverse group; people with experience, race, background
"how we are going to implement best practices"

Trimarchi: engaging stakeholders; how do you intend to build alliances?
Schwinn: have worked in two states; "this is not a job where you can learn on the job"
state roles are not the same as districts
"working with your board, working with your local officials, statewide advocacy groups at the table"
"that's just step one"
"have to think about the mayor, have to think about the local school boards"
"it is the respect that you provide to local communities...I am tailoring that approach at the state level"
"sometimes I have to get out of the way and let them do their jobs"

Fernandez: balance of time
Schwinn: in Delaware, you meet with every district every month; large state is very different
"you are tasked with representing that work with a diverse group of stakeholders"
"both listening and hearing" is a significant part of the job
"continual cycle is incredibly important"

Sagan wants to go back to student engagement (because she didn't respond to that)
Schwinn: as adults often meet with adults, "have to build with the student in mind"
no one knows that better than the students
professional development for educators with be built with student input

Trimarchi: experience with working with legislative leaders? balance of interest groups?
Schwinn: great and complicated question
lots of different groups
"knowing those relationships"
"understand the various perspectives and aspirations and goals are"
build and see familiar faces that you talk to regularly
shape policy, can have conversations to talk about why and move forward

McKenna: there are very different views about what a state agency's role should be; what's your philosophy?
Schwinn: "It is something that we wrestle with constantly"
"to set expectations: what do we expect students to learn"
how do we know that they learned it
how do we support districts
"you are framing the house"
if it isn't going well, "you invite yourself into the house" and have those conversations
"very deliberate"
"the role of the state is to get out of people's way"
McKenna: balance of state oversight and local control
Schwinn: different in each state
Texas motto "come and take it"
"really is contextual to the local context"
"continue to bump" the expectation higher and higher "you have to make sure people are there first"
"really about letting local communities make local decisions for their children"
holding "mutual accountability for ourselves and others...accountability needs to start with the agency"

McKenna: you ran for elected office, but decided to leave after a year. Can you talk about that decision?
Schwinn: "was not an easy decision"
was nothing wrong in state law with serving in both positions but ethics said no, so she resigned

Peyser: series of roles; not asking for ten years, but do see it
Schwinn: "have been blessed with opportunities to serve" in many roles
managers who have seen her abilities and given a lot of power
"when you are an appointed role, that can be a short tenure"
"very happy, very happy in my role"
"not looking to move"
"do love state work"
"it is only this job to get us to move"
lots of transitions leads to "learned apathy"
"I too would be looking for a long term commitment, because my girls are going to be in school."
from a personal perspective "we are looking to settle"
"and stability is" important in education leadership

West: asking about charter schools: what role do they play?
Schwinn: "I am a believer, a deep believer in public education"
"and a deep believer in my role as a parent in choosing education for my child"
Massachusetts has a variety of types of schools
"most important thing about public education is you have communities that support those schools"
charter schools the beginning of her career "not the majority of my career"
commitment that we make to students every day
"that we fulfill the mission and vision for our families"


TEN MINUTE address at end of first year (this was their homework)
remember the day I first set foot in an excellent schools
engagement of students
School "allowed them to define themselves by their potential"
she started in a school now "needs improvement...but my mom moved ten miles"
"that ten miles defined so much of the opportunity I had before me"
"parents and students want that access to opportunity"
a vision to the future "through the eyes of our students"
"have much to celebrate"
runs through some NAEP
"clear commitment to education"
"far more of students are graduating on time and fewer are dropping out" but remedial coursework (oh wasn't watching the joint meeting this week)
held meetings that involved every district in the state
"important to include everyone consistently"
tool for understanding the standards
meaningful parent advisory councils and strong
"what and how we are communicating"
"making parent reports actionable" (I don't know what this means)
continued support of educators we know are critical to our future success
skills necessary to new classroom teachers
teachers participate in externships
"increase rigor and relevance in principal leadership"
support lowest performing schools; "mutual accountability"
continue in "Springfield and Holyoke"
"this alone is not a scaleable solution"
appropriate supports for schools; blended learning platform
"accountability needs to be matched with technical assistance"
Abigail Adams: "Learning is not attained by chance. It must be sought for with ardor and diligence"

West: reform of teacher evaluation
Schwinn: important question
"in best part of education, those decisions are made at the local level"
determine, though "what is excellence" and how to ensure students have access"
"can't be an endpoint"
"to support an individual in being better and better in their craft"
"have those decisions locally..with your full teacher workforce"
"have to have balance in those conversations"
"have made it a conversation about testing and not about teaching"
too often "not starting with the role of the teacher"

Fernandez: in a room with parents from Chelsea, Springfield, Holyoke and talking to them about the LOOK act
Schwinn "would want to make sure we had the appropriate people to translate"
"opportunity and assets"
"this act is giving us the opportunity to provide access"
"allows our children to be celebrated for speaking dual languages"
talk through strategies that need to be implemented
"not a one size fits all model" but resources we bring to the table
ability for innovation
"celebration of what we know to be true, that our children bring incredible gifts"

Fernandez: how would you structure your communication strategy? especially parents and students
Schwinn: have noted in role: have to define who stakeholders are
"changing the lens about how we approach communication"
"making information actionable"
interface of where the child is, what they're interested in
"who is the end user and what is their need"
very active social media account
"I think we need to cognizent about what it means to families that are raising kids"
Fernandez: assessment of communication? have you looked at Massachusetts
Schwinn: one of the things I would make things are available in all of the languages that are represented
don't bury the lead
"making sure that you let people know exactly how to find information"
personalize for child
(note that she is answering for Texas, not for Massachusetts)

Doherty: view on correlation between poverty and test scores? mitigate?
Schwinn: too often socio-economic predicting achievement
there are exceptions
"yes the data does show that, but it doesn't have to"
some children need more time
support at schools for whole child
Doherty: how should such scores be used?
Schwinn: assessments serve an important purpose; "assessment happens all the time as part of our work"
state and federal law requires testing
fixed point in time to see what students need moving forward
"without [testing], we can't" know how children are doing "to do better"
if you are a "A B or C" school in Texas, "you can have a local accountability system"
"unless we have some way of measuring the performance of our students" we can't know how they're doing, "and we do a disservice to our kids"

Peyser I have no idea what question he just asked: reading? maybe?
Schwinn: make sure students know letter sounds
then reading comprehension
students need context for that
"students don't read books about reading"
students making connections between historical markers and what they were reading
"literacy in every content area, but have to give access in those content areas"
Peyser: incentives in accountability system are focused on assessment, how to pursue full range?
Schwinn: different approach you can take: include science and social studies in the state testing
"something that is valued and that you need to teach"
"how do we hold our schools accountable in general"
"start to look at other indicators...might look like" different kinds of feedback
"the non-measured indicators"
Peyser: vocational and career education: role?
Schwinn: workforce of tomorrow?
articulated pathways going back into middle school
but "still talking about students who are 12 and 13 years old"
counselors who help students look at what those pathways are"

Peyser: are there certain state mandates that you would want to change or eliminate?
Schwinn: the district administration in me says yes
multiple accountability system that all work at the same time
"and it is a compliance issue"
one plan that is meaningful to the districts and schools
"think about monitoring...what does monitoring look like?"
seven difference monitoring teams in one month in a single district
conversation about the context and the outcomes "and then we would tie that to technical assistance"
state's "not just coming in to check boxes and then to go away"

Stewart: talk more about parent advisory piece
Schwinn: connect parents to resources as their children move higher on ladder in education
role of state when working with parents
"regular meetings with parents" specific communities of parents and students
information about my child to connect to resources to fill a need that child has
"think states need to open source and share information"
use technology to personalize the experience for families
have some scenerio where parents can call "and you can talk to the same person every time"
resources personalized to your child's need

Morton: two examples of your actions leading to improvements of students
Schwinn: head of school are instructional leader on campus
went to excellent schools and gained information from them
"how we benchmarked with students and how" we worked with families on that
"importance of learning from others...saying 'I don't know' and 'I want to get better'"
another: Texas were not communicating performance completely or accurate
"whenever we have any kind of labeling and it involves the child" that's a problem
"we're talking about proficiency and grade level, not the kid"
difference between being on grade level and approaching it
districts actually changed professional development to target students in a different way
give many students at a different level
"changed the trajectory for hundreds of thousands of students"


Sagan asks if she has any reservations about the job.
"I am very aware that I am not from Massachusetts, and that matters."
"that's an ongoing conversation...that will take time...will need to build trust"
"take the time and invest in the history"

Sagan offers to ask questions of them
Schwinn: important thing Commissioner has to do for state
Sagan: equity and achievement

Schwinn tells the story of a parent who wanted college and success for her son:
"I think that you can get him there, and I think you can and I think this school can"
birth mother of her daughter; "I can't give her what she needs, but I think that you can"
"Privilege and the importance of our role in public education"
"they gave us their babies today"
"I take that seriously...it's the most important job in the world"